Social Boundaries

[Navarre]

I was watching this short video this morning: Holding Hands with Strangers video

I found the social experiment kind of interesting. As usual, I found the comments section to be hateful and saddening.

I readily agree that it is not within our normal social customs to have a stranger so physically close to us, let alone trying to hold our hand. Still, I thought it might be worth a bit of discussion.

[Alisha Mynx]

As usual, I found the comments section to be hateful and saddening.

It's Yahoo.  The only thing those people know how to do is be hateful, ignorant and sometimes just plain nuts.  It can be an article stating "World Peace will begin tomorrow!" and the comments would still be nothing but ignorant rants about how it somehow is the fault of the gay agenda (what do those people have against being happy, anyway?) and we should boycott it, etc.   Like when I pointed out to some guy's comment that he was wrong, Superman couldn't be a ripoff of Spiderman because there was over a 20+ year gap between their creations, with Superman coming first in the late 30's and the guy responded with the ever-so-mature response of misspelled insults.

As for the actual topic:

I'll be quite honest.  I don't even like touching most people I know unless I'm ready for it, so someone I don't know attempting to touch me would instantly cause a panic reaction.  Sure, I hug a lot and play around a little close, but if I'm not expecting it I'll almost violently pull my hand away from my partner if she tries to hold my hand. 

But I'm not exactly within the range of "normal" people.   Not by a long shot.   

[Navarre]

eh, "normal" is not only undefinable, it's boring. 

I think it is "normal" though for each of us to have our own personal boundary space. It seems fairly consistent with most people.

At the very least, we don't expect strangers to randomly touch us. The boundaries vary more with those we know.

I have some friends who are huggers, others who occasionally give little touches of attention/affection, and others who would probably be wearing a hazmat suit if they could.

I guess we see similar behavior across the animal kingdom, with some species being more physical with each other than others. But as thinking creatures, I would have to say it is a learned social custom for us.

We are generally taught to engage with others to some degree but to maintain individuality and personal space. This video is a reflection of that.

Personally, I love hugs and being touched. However, I would not want some stranger doing such a thing from out of nowhere. Instinct would probably kick in and I'd judo-throw the hapless stranger into oblivion.

[Alisha Mynx]

Personally, I love hugs and being touched. However, I would not want some stranger doing such a thing from out of nowhere. Instinct would probably kick in and I'd judo-throw the hapless stranger into oblivion.

I kinda had to semi-train myself not to do that.  If I get touched and go into a panic, I also sorta mentally go straight to attack mode.

And it isn't like I have some huge trauma in my past to make me like that, either (unless you consider my cancer, which would be a really weird reason since it didn't actually physically assault me or anything).  I wasn't taught that hugs or human contact was bad (which is amazing considering my mother is an extreme hypochondriac).  I like hugs.  I like holding hands.  But unexpected contact freaks me out for some reason.

For most of my teen years, one of my friends thought it might actually be that it causes me pain.  I can see why they would think that by the almost violent jerks I tend to do when I'm not expecting contact, but that is thankfully not the case. 

[Navarre]

Did you have an evil twin who used to kick you when you were sharing space together in the womb? Maybe she's out there, stalking you, waiting to try and hold your hand.

[Alisha Mynx]

Did you have an evil twin who used to kick you when you were sharing space together in the womb? Maybe she's out there, stalking you, waiting to try and hold your hand.

And I'm automatically trying to keep her from accessing our super-special-awesome twin power that activates when we hold hands so she won't use it for evil?

Makes sense.

[Gaumer]

This is a learned defensive mechanism that we pick up because we are taught or learn that people who can touch us are more able to harm us.

Grab a baby's hand, they ain't letting go, and I bet the results for this "experiment" if children were the subject would be a whole lot different. Humans are social animals before we are anything else, but this experiment shows how detached we become from that later in life, depending on the situation.

I also bet if this "experiment" was done at a family reunion, for example, it would be completely different, because the subjects wouldn't be so subliminally "on guard" to physical touching. Same, I would expect, would be seen at a college party or at a small office, but for very different reasons: one being the expectation to be touched is expected; the other because the familiarity of the environment and the people in that environment.

I'd like to see more results from similar experiments to get a real bearing on the human condition in this context, because it seems to be an evolutionary defense mechanic that goes against other evolutionary defense mechanisms. Very interesting.

[Navarre]

Although it is also true that babies have the "palmer grasp reflex" that compels them to grip something in their palm.

But, yes, I agree with you overall. But it is a very individualized reaction when it comes to those with whom one is familiar.

For example, I am going a friend's birthday party tonight. I have known everyone there for years, with the exception of my new girlfriend.

I will definitely be hugged up on my girlfriend. Another one my female friends likes to hug so I'm hoping for that too.

However, two of the females do not like to be touched, at all, by anyone except for their significant other. Likewise, none of the guys are going to hug because of the gender differences in such activity as compared to females.

So I don't think there is any one factor that dictates the response but a combination of individual preferences and societal norms.

[Navarre]

Did you have an evil twin who used to kick you when you were sharing space together in the womb? Maybe she's out there, stalking you, waiting to try and hold your hand.

And I'm automatically trying to keep her from accessing our super-special-awesome twin power that activates when we hold hands so she won't use it for evil?

Makes sense.

Andrea & Andreas von Strucker: flight and energy blasts when touching

Jean-Paul & Jeanne-Marie Beaubier: light blasts when touching

Zan & Jayna: transforms into water and animals, respectively when touching

Alisha & evil twin: ??

[Gaumer]

Although it is also true that babies have the "palmer grasp reflex" that compels them to grip something in their palm.

But, yes, I agree with you overall. But it is a very individualized reaction when it comes to those with whom one is familiar.

For example, I am going a friend's birthday party tonight. I have known everyone there for years, with the exception of my new girlfriend.

I will definitely be hugged up on my girlfriend. Another one my female friends likes to hug so I'm hoping for that too.

However, two of the females do not like to be touched, at all, by anyone except for their significant other. Likewise, none of the guys are going to hug because of the gender differences in such activity as compared to females.

So I don't think there is any one factor that dictates the response but a combination of individual preferences and societal norms.

But you'll shake their hands or bump their fists, correct? A learned physical social interaction. The same as every single other social interaction we partake in every single day.

Primitive reflexes, like Palmar Grasp, disappear or are inhibited as the child moves through normal child development, AKA, learning

All I'm saying is, for example, the two girls in your real-world example, learned to not like being touched, because anyone who has ever enjoyed time with a baby knows that babies really enjoy being held, touched, etc.

I think what we need to know is: are babies touching because they like to touch or is there something else going on (heat transfer, maybe); when does rationalizing the touching come into the child's mind; for what reason has the child started rationalizing such.

Still, quite an interesting look into human nature and the evolution of it on an individual basis.

[Navarre]

Yes, still agreeing with you on all that.

Babies have been shown to not only like being touched but to benefit from it in numerous ways. There are positive physiological changes that occur to the child who is touched as well as engendering more socially adjusted children.

So why do we stop touching each other? It seems we are taught to avoid touching but I do not know the reasons why.

My first guess is that babies are touched because they need nurturing but older children are taught to be independent and for some reason that means we touch less. I don't think independence needs to require lack of touching though and I see little evidence that humans are better off for lack of it.

[Gaumer]

Yes, still agreeing with you on all that.

Babies have been shown to not only like being touched but to benefit from it in numerous ways. There are positive physiological changes that occur to the child who is touched as well as engendering more socially adjusted children.

So why do we stop touching each other? It seems we are taught to avoid touching but I do not know the reasons why.

My first guess is that babies are touched because they need nurturing but older children are taught to be independent and for some reason that means we touch less. I don't think independence needs to require lack of touching though and I see little evidence that humans are better off for lack of it.

Great point on babies benefiting from touch, but I think there is evidence that ALL humans benefit from this.
http://suite101.com/article/the-benefits-of-human-touch-a155979

But, touching is one of the ONLY direct ways another person can physically harm another person. This is surely an evolutionary thing as well, but I think in our society where we worry about unseen monsters that can kill us, bacteria and viruses, and touching is such a taboo, our own "knowledge" about how to stay "safe" works against our evolution, which has made us benefit so much from touching.

Scientists are certain that human sweat is a device used in human sexuality to give unconscious cues to our brains that make us know when others want to procreate, but that same scent when consciously recognized can turn other humans away from touching that smelly person, something scientists think is also an evolutionary thing keeping humans away from "dirtier" humans. Yet today and throughout recorded history, humans have covered their own scents in order to overcome the "bad" smells, which, logically, covers up any smells that are helpful to humans. This is an example of humans compensating for something they deem as needing compensation, while evolution has its own reasons for doing such. Surely the same is being done by our "knowledge" of what touching means or can mean.

[Navarre]

I think that is likely.

My girlfriend frequently tells me I smell incredible but I reply that I am not wearing any cologne or any scented product. Her words are generally followed by trying to jump me like I'm the last piece of cheesecake on Earth.

So it seems that, somehow, she is cuing into my natural pheromones and is experiencing the effect of this. I, in turn, receive the aforementioned touching and all is happy in the land.

But, as you say, we tend to obscure our natural scents and shy away from almost all physical contact. As we become an ever more fearful society, we are even afraid to hug a little kid or a co-worker.

It seems we are devolving as a society by our own efforts.

[Gaumer]

I think understanding that this is occurring is the biggest part of things.

In the OP video, I would think that if it was me having my hand grabbed I may be startled, but as soon as I realized what was going on, I honestly believe that I would hold that guy's hand right back. I am the guy who tends to shake hands an extra moment, maybe even throwing my left hand on top of the pile or on a shoulder. I love hugs and give them when I feel they may be required, but I have to admit I think people should be hugging all the time yet because of society's taboos I don't do it as much as I really want to.

I should really work on that. Why should I let what others think ruin such a great and healthy thing, for both myself and the huggy? I'm doing them a favor.

Go to the mall with a"Free Hugs" sign is what I need

[dantemarx]

Have to side with Alisha on this topic. We have a society where stranger danger is a valid concern. Touching is a more intimate interaction than speaking or looking, and also gives the other person some physical control over your body. As such, there is a distinct fear/revulsion in being touched by a stranger, much like there can be fear at seeing blood or loud noises.
On the other hand, touching is an excellent social tool, and between friends, I have no problem with casual touching. Obviously, not every area is equivalent - there is a difference between a hand on the shoulder and the groin - and as such, different levels of intimacy are implied and required based on the details of touching.