Axe Anarchy

[Navarre]

This was mentioned on the main MS site but I think it deserves some buzz:

Axe Anarchy web comic

It seems the comic is going to be created in real time, which I think is amazing.

It also heavily uses reader's input and maybe even going so far as to including them as characters. Listening to the readers?! Take note, Marvel and DC!

Even though the comic isn't slated to start until January 10th, I have already been able to pick my favorite of two characters to be included in the comic as well as suggesting a location for the setting- all right from the web site.

I think this idea is innovative and long overdue.   

[Gaumer]

On the surface, sounds like a great and innovative idea.

Dig a bit deeper, and it seems like a cheap marketing ploy to get people to buy perfume.

Dig a bit more, throw on some cynicism, Axe is getting ideas from the hivemind of the internet? Its like a 1000 monkeys and 1000 typewriters: I can write the story right now and, odds are, someone out there is going to post as their idea for what should happen next exactly what is going to happen next

Pretty cool. I think I'd have a bit more confidence in such a thing if a small press publisher was doing it. Would seem more genuine on the surface.

[Navarre]

Of course it's a marketing ploy to get people to buy hygiene products. That's what Axe does.

But that takes nothing away from the concept. The fact that Marvel and DC have their head so far up their collective corporate asses that they never gives the reader what they want yet continue to watch readership sales dwindle only shows how out of touch they are.

Think how promising Marvel titles would be if they were this connected to their reader.

It would be much more difficult for Marvel or DC to accomplish because their reader base is so large there would be more arguments than direction. But something like Axe, with no dog in the fight, can pull this off. I think Marvel or DC could create a new title and go this same route. In fact, I predict they will within the next 12 months and claim how original and avant garde they are for doing so.

[Gaumer]

I think Marvel and DC are too uppity to allow a meager little old reader like me tell them how to tell their stories. Its what we get though: we raise these writers up on pedestals and then hate it when they have a touch of arrogance. Which is exactly what it would be stop Marvel or DC from doing anything close to this.

I agree, it does feel like something that could be something cool. I guess I either don't have enough faith in the company following through 100% or in the hivemind of the internet having a good idea series of good ideas that can be called a story.

[Navarre]

So you're saying that the current writers are these elite geniuses who have the ability to create stories like no other but that, nowhere among the entire readership base, are there readers who have anything worth contributing to that process?

I don't buy that.

We aren't talking about a popularity contest of what gets written. That would be like watching 14 year old girls vote on which is a better movie between [insert movie title here] and Twilight.

But I assert that if the writers and creative forces of Marvel and DC were to actually read through reader comments and draw ideas and feedback from them we wouldn't have as many closed-door meetings of that same staff getting together to applaud their own creativity as they rehash the same attempts to elevate sales through the next Event. (please excuse the run-on sentence)

[Gaumer]

So you're saying that the current writers are these elite geniuses who have the ability to create stories like no other but that, nowhere among the entire readership base, are there readers who have anything worth contributing to that process?

No, no. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that's what Marvel and DC are saying.

But I assert that if the writers and creative forces of Marvel and DC were to actually read through reader comments and draw ideas and feedback from them we wouldn't have as many closed-door meetings of that same staff getting together to applaud their own creativity as they rehash the same attempts to elevate sales through the next Event. (please excuse the run-on sentence)

I have almost no doubt, whatsoever, that some of the stuff these writers are getting they ARE getting from comments and such. Marvel's forums has a section for submitting writing and they straight up say that they own that shit, just like any site would. I think a good story is a good story no matter who the hell is writing it. You're describing a "circle-jerk" which is all they have been doing at Marvel (save some books) for years: rehash a 20 year piece of work in "praise" of it (circle-jerk); think its so uber awesome they have to do a hundred tie-ins because IT NEEDS THEM (circle-jerk); repeat.
A couple commas needed but not a terrible run-on. Do you even read my posts?

And I'm not saying the Axe thing is a bad idea, I just think its hard to gauge its success on the levels I posted above. We can't know for sure any of it. But the idea is sound.

Here's a contest. Writers write; artists...art. But getting good versions of the two together for a comic book is a tough deal. Networking is more than half of getting a job comicbooking (or so I have read). Why doesn't a small time publisher try to get the two together, reality show style? Take submissions for art and scripts and get teams together to really build something good. IDK. Seems better than the hivemind thing Axe is doing, but I'm not saying its a terrible thing. Anything that makes a good comic is a good thing and if this way/style/format makes a good comic then by god where do I post my ideas for The Tachyon Kid

[Navarre]

The Tachyon Kid? Nah, that concept was rejected in favor of Chromatic! Zing!  

But (and hopefully not confusing new forum readers) let's take the Legion of Fans thread as an example.

Here was an instance where the writer (that awesome guy, Navarre) wrote a script based solely from reader input. The readers submitted character ideas and location, just like Axe is doing. Then I wrote a script based on it.

At every stage I looked for feedback from those who had created the characters but also from any reader who came along. I used that to fine-tune the first issue and then "published" it.

Then I got more feedback. Many liked it.

Dexter claimed it was "about nothing" or something to that effect, which gave me a chance to have my work critically examined. That was great.

If I had an artist and a youtube channel for it, might we have not seen the genesis of something permanent where the readers truly had their say in the creative process? I don't see that as any sort of hive mind but instead as a dynamic confluence of ideas driven by the vested interest of the readership base.

That sounds pretty awesome to me. Axe might be only looking to sell more hair gel but I think the concept behind their approach is quite available to current publishers if they were willing to change their paradigm.

[Gaumer]

I don't think they are the same concepts tho.

Legion of Fans was a set group of guys who had a specific input on a project.

This Axe thing is inviting literally millions of people to comment and add to the project. Now, there's no way in hell that every comment is going to be read, unlike Legion of Fans where every part was scrutinized over by every other member of the group and so on and so on. There's no "idea bouncing" and such.

Legion of Fans works. Dedicated guys with a mutual interest and an open dialogue. The Axe thing is just a bunch on people shouting to a guy, it seems. Liek when Drew Carey asks the audience for a topic in a "Who's Line..." skit.

But again, it may be a good comic that comes out of it, and that will be something.

But if you're talking about something along the Legion of Fans (for example) being a successful comic made by some guys who met on the internet and went to print and such, oh hell yeah! It happens all the time, and its awesome! I just think having millions in the group sort of defeats the ultimate purpose.

[Navarre]

Couldn't the Axe project conceivably hire some minimum wage person whose job it is to read posts and consolidate ideas to then bring to the creative heads? It doesn't seem impossible.

I think it very possible that the end result would be better than Marvel Event #47. I think it would work better for Marvel or DC if they were doing it as a set project with new characters. Otherwise the fans arguing over continuity and such would be a mess.

If I had an artist, we could start up a similar project on youtube or somewhere and see what happens. 

[Gaumer]

Yeah, but, is that minimum wage going to have to go back and communicate with the original poster about his idea? No. He's going to find a few good ideas and throw them into the bunch, a piecemeal jumble where the writer of the actual book puts it together.

I'm all for new blood and fresh ideas but I don't just want a head guy at Marvel grabbing some ideas and throwing them together as his own, which I'm already sure happens, and all this Axe thing seems to be.

I don't think a million people yelling through a Facebook or Youtube comment thread is going to make a comic book. I also don't think Marvel is in any shortage of water in the good story well. Its just a matter of fetching the water.

You should find you an artist, dude.

I'll put a word on my FB page if you get a Youtube page and a plan

[Navarre]

You should find you an artist, dude.

I'll put a word on my FB page if you get a Youtube page and a plan

Sounds good!

My first plan would need to be how to find an artist.

While writers seem willing to write and hope their work sells, artists seem to want to be paid upfront no matter what. I can't do that.

Different topic thread I guess but I thought I'd already started a thread for that in the Collaborations section, such as this thread.

[Beta Ray Bill Cosby]

I think that if marvel or DC did something like this it would be fine as a stunt, but I hope you're not actually suggesting that this is the way all comics should be written.

In fact, if you take a step back and allow for a healthy heap of shut-up-and-follow-along-here that's precisely the problem with superhero comics today.

Marvel hires a writer to write War Machine, then fires them and hires a new one, then that new one needs to spend at least two issues dealing with an event, then a new creative team is brought on board. This all results in a disjointed story Across issues. And Why? too many writers, too much input from editorial and as always the strictures of continuity.

A communally written comic, especially in this format, is likely to suffer in the same way since it would be all editorial fiat + fan involvement with 0% of the unifying vision that a writer brings.

I'll be interested to see whether Axe Anarchy turns out to be a good story. My guess is that it won't be.

[Navarre]

I did not suggest that all comics should be written this way. I stated it would be problematic with many existing titles. I suggested that Marvel or DC could use the Axe method on a new title, possibly with new characters.

If I follow your statements, you are saying that the problem with Marvel and DC is:

• They don't keep the same writer on a title long enough.
• The new writer is then forced to deal with trying to maintain the flow of the story begun by the former writer.
• Editorial pushes writers to write events, making title crossover an issue.
• Editorial makes too many dictations to the writer; generally toward those same Events.
• Because of these things, the stories and continuity suffer.

I agree with every one of those statements. They support my point very well.

It was never suggested, either by myself or Axe, that readers got to dictate the specific events of the story. They are basically saying that the readers will be heard and considered. That is more than Marvel does.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Axe title will have a revolving door of writers. There are certainly no Events to worry about.

Instead, we have a writer who is in touch with his fan base. He hears their feedback and suggestions and considers them. Then, with some editorial guidance, writes whatever he wishes. That is still the writer's prerogative, not the readers'.

But if one wishes to sell comics they should consider what the readers are looking for in their stories. Axe is promising to do that.

Whether the actual story itself turns out to be any good depends on the skill of the writer. I agree with you that it probably won't be that great.

But that is a result of the writer hired, not the method. Axe isn't hiring Geoff Johns or Mark Waid to write for them.

I believe the method itself to be a very good concept that both Marvel and DC could employ, with modifications to suit their unique nature and long-term history.

[Beta Ray Bill Cosby]

If I follow your statements, you are saying that the problem with Marvel and DC is:

• They don't keep the same writer on a title long enough.
• The new writer is then forced to deal with trying to maintain the flow of the story begun by the former writer.
• Editorial pushes writers to write events, making title crossover an issue.
• Editorial makes too many dictations to the writer; generally toward those same Events.
• Because of these things, the stories and continuity suffer.

I agree with every one of those statements. They support my point very well.

Of course they do, superficially. That's what I was getting at. Go re-read my post, you'll get the parallels I'm going for on the second go-round.

It was never suggested, either by myself or Axe, that readers got to dictate the specific events of the story.

Did you watch the same video I did? I think what you are suggesting is not what Axe is suggesting. Axe is certainly suggesting that the readers will get to dictate the specific events of the story, here's a couple sample 'reader suggestions' just from that awesome video:

"I want detective Santiago and his assistant to get together and hook up..."

"The Hot asian Anarchy Girl should break away from the others to cause maximum mayhem."

"A hot police woman should go rogue and join the anarchy girls."

But if one wishes to sell comics they should consider what the readers are looking for in their stories. Axe is promising to do that.

They sure are! But will that leave us with a better story?

Whether the actual story itself turns out to be any good depends on the skill of the writer. I agree with you that it probably won't be that great.

then what's the point? You claim Marvel doesn't listen to its readers and their stories suck, but if Axe listens to their readers and their stories suck where does that leave us?

Calling up Mark Waid and Geoff Johns to write up some stories. You know, square 1.

[Navarre]

Do you believe Marvel's current method of publishing to adequately address the wishes of the reader base?