Wolverine NEVER existed

[Rbouken]

What if Len Wein, Herb Trimpe, Jack Abel & John Romita, Sr never written and drew
(and even designed) Ol' Canucklehead back in 1974 to begin with for some reason?

Would Marvel be successful with just Spider-Man and other characters in their company?

Could Storm get chance to be a little bit popular without Wolvie being apart of the X-Men franchise?

If the canadian Emsemble Dark Horse never existed, who would Sabretooth be the foe of?

And finally, if WolCanucklehead didn't exist, who would be the Trope Namer of these tropes?

Fastball Special
Wolverine Publicity
Wolverine Claws

[Navarre]

The late 80's and the 90's saw an era of the grim anti-hero. If Wolverine hadn't been around to be the poster child for that, it would have been someone else who had the spotlight.

Storm would not get her just due any more (or less) than Ms. Marvel does in the Avengers. I think the gender bias in comics would prevent it.

[The Mighty King Cobra]

The late 80's and the 90's saw an era of the grim anti-hero. If Wolverine hadn't been around to be the poster child for that, it would have been someone else who had the spotlight.

Storm would not get her just due any more (or less) than Ms. Marvel does in the Avengers. I think the gender bias in comics would prevent it.

The 90's anti-hero grew organically out of the Wolverine effect, which had a pretty notable start with the 1982 Wolverine miniseries.  I'd be interested to have seen what Frank Miller would have done with Thunderbird or even Nightcrawler. 

Given Miller's Japan fascination of the 80's, wouldn't it have been interesting to see him do something with Sunfire?

And there's a big difference between Storm and Ms. Marvel.  Ms. Marvel started out as a knockoff of Captain Marvel, and her latest incarnation was pretty much nothing more than a boring, distaff Hal Jordan.  Storm, on the other hand, is interesting and has a character with more than one note to it.  Not all those notes make sense, or even harmonize with her OTHER notes, but she's got more chance of breaking out than Carol...

[Navarre]

If Logan hadn't been around I could see Thunderbird having taken on that role. Suddenly, Native Americans would be cool today, not Canadians. Sorry, Puck.

The character is however they are written. If the writer wanted an anti-hero and there was no Wolverine character, there would have been nothing stopping the writer from writing those same traits into Thunderbird or someone else. Thus, we probably would have ended up exactly where we are now, just with a different poster boy.

For that same reason, Carol won't get her breakthrough. I agree. But Carol isn't a knock-off of Captain Marvel anymore. She simply isn't as well-developed as she could be.

It isn't because the character couldn't achieve more. The writers won't write her, or even Storm, that way.

[The Mighty King Cobra]

For that same reason, Carol won't get her breakthrough. I agree. But Carol isn't a knock-off of Captain Marvel anymore. She simply isn't as well-developed as she could be.

It isn't because the character couldn't achieve more. The writers won't write her, or even Storm, that way.

That's the same argument you have about Kitty Pryde and Magik, and I still don't buy it.  You can't just decide which characters should resonate with the reading public, and you can't just "write them cool" to make them work.  In fact, Carol Danvers has become a limited character BECAUSE of that theory, and I think that she's not mainstream popular for the same reasons that Rodrigo wishes they'd leave Psylocke alone:  Too many writers have TRIED to make her cool by adjusting her character and the accumulated barnacles are now a detriment to anything you do with her.

As written, Carol Danvers is not a natural superhero.  As written, she's been a soldier, a screwup, a dreamer, a feminist, a super-spy, a cosmic enigma, a cut-rate Green Lantern (in more than one sense), but most of all she's been a character who has now had half a dozen backgrounds and histories.  But the one thing that she has ALWAYS had working against her is that her character is confrontational at best and strident at worst.  The very reason she's called "Ms." Marvel in the first place is because her character was initially Marvel's token militant feminist, and is often used as the team jerk or 'says-it-like-it-is' sassy person.

Gender bias has nothing to do with the fact that Carol Danvers is just an unpleasant character.

I like Storm better with a mohawk, though...

[Navarre]

But while Wolverine is given diligent care to make him "cool", Ms. Marvel has been shuffled all over the place. There seemed to be no consistency among the writers in terms of her character's direction.

So, consequently, she's ended up as kind of a mess. That isn't her fault.

Peter Parker or Logan would have ended up just as screwed up if Editorial wasn't keeping them under the microscope to make sure they maintain their poster boy status.

And Kitty and Illyana suffer from the same thing. I agree with your post elsewhere about Kitty's ninja powers and all that nonsense.

The writer didn't know how to handle her so he changed her just to have a story. I can't blame Kitty for that.

[Gaumer]

IDK

Wolverine has been pretty fubared throughout his history, and the Spider-Man hate has always been around.

I guess at their cores, however, they've been taken much better care of than some others.


I think ANY character can be made to be good. But in Ms. Marvel's case I think it would take some time and consistency, even if that's a brilliant mini, giving a persona that can finally stick, and cameos all over the place.

The recent Taskmaster mini was really good and opened the character in ways that kept to what we know of the character and still moved him forward in new and different ways (for the character at least) but where is he? No where.

Some characters just can't reach cool. This is a great debate and I'd love to hear more arguments for the "character selling the book" vs. "the publisher selling the character". I know where I lean, but I'm a Wolverine fan

[Navarre]

I think the publisher sells the character which, in turn, sells the book.

It's like Disney. They sold Hannah Montana which sold the show which, in turn, sold everything related to the character.

Hannah Montana was never cool. But good marketing made her seem that way to the target audience.

Wolverine is actually a cool character. But he's been pimped out too much.

[@lantis]

How many Hannah Montana episodes have you seen to justify your argument?  I have worked with enough children and seen enough Disney shows to know that Hannah Montana was not the result of Disney pushing it down people's throats.  There was something there which the kids bought into.

I know this because Disney has tried to sell other singers like they did with Hannah Montana, and it didn't take.  Same thing goes with other networks.  Marketing is like magic, we remember the successes and the terrible accidents, but rarely the routine failures.

[Navarre]

I have seen every Hannah Montana episode multiple times. I have a young daughter, remember?

I have also seen pretty much every episode of every show Disney offered.

Other singers didn't take for other reasons. Demi Lovato didn't take off for her personal challenges. Singers like Emily Osment didn't get out of the blocks because her character, Lilly, was a secondary character to Hannah Montana.

But Selena Gomez is doing quite well. I will skip my personal opinion of her to focus on some relevant items.

Her show, Wizards of Waverly Place, was constantly pushed by Disney and was nearly equal to Hannah Montana in popularity. She has received even greater focus because of her relationship with Justin Beiber. (If I was younger I'd hate him on sheer jealous principle.)

Like Miley Cyrus, she is given the spotlight. Marketing dollars go to her. She has her Dream Out Loud clothing line through K-Mart and so on.

Like Wolverine, Selena and Miley were selected and "made" to be great. Selena isn't extraordinarily talented as a singer. Miley has about nothing going for her in any craft I've seen. It doesn't stop them from being on top thanks to the boys in Marketing.

It's the same with Wolverine versus, say, Magik or Ms. Marvel. Not taking anything away from Logan, simply saying all characters don't exist in a fair marketing world.

[Gaumer]

But That's So Raven is pushed so freaking hard and I don't see the Raven Symon (sic) fan fair. Just an example.

And I think Demi Lavato IS a pretty big name despite her persoanl challenges, and I agree that Disney didn't push HER as much after that whole thing came out.

I think there has to be a combination of both for there to be the sort of success Disney is used to in their "characters" (which is all those people are, really). Disney knows how to manufacture a product that has the potential, with the proper marketing, of becoming Hannah Montana-esque. Its just a matter of the initial public love for the character; Disney knows how to do it after that.

I still think its apples and oranges comparing Marvel characters, who have had decades of "marketing" (if the Disney girls "private" social lives can be used as marketing we have to put the decades of stories in that same department), to Disney mega-stars. Disney purposely starts these endeavors to make a super, mega pop star that can be marketed to a certain group. I don't think they go out and have a master, long-term plan when they create Marvel characters.

Its more of a trial and error for each individual character, with no one character becoming popular or falling into somewhat obscurity the same as another.

Disney's marketing of cute, young women seems more like a set system one could write instructions for "How to create a Disney pop-star". I'd buy it

[Navarre]

I don't think they go out and have a master, long-term plan when they create Marvel characters.

Sure they do. Marvel wants to sell books.

So, if Wolverine is popular, let's make a dozen more characters who have that Wolverine feel and that will sell books. Everyone from X-23 to Daken to Deadpool is that effort in motion; tweaking each so they seem unique but still pandering to what they think the reader will buy.

If for some reason the big thing for comic lovers was corrupted innocence, mystic power, dark psyche, and snarky sarcasm then Illyana would be on the cover of everything next Wednesday, she'd get four titles, appear on every cover, and have seven variations of her character appearing in other titles claiming to be unique.

Disney's marketing of cute, young women seems more like a set system one could write instructions for "How to create a Disney pop-star". I'd buy it

Oh? Is Selena Gomez cute?

I hadn't noticed.   

[Gaumer]

But they have one of those books, New Mutants, and it isn't selling.

So what came first? The character or the peoples' desire of the character? Did one spawn the other? I think that the current debate, and its got to be a little of both.

Vampires aren't just now cool. They have been cool before and Marvel took advantage, or did they make them cool that time? I wasn't there as much as I am now, so I have no idea.

And since when does Marvel do what people want? Sure, their goal is to sell books but they have done a good job of NOT doing what so many of their fans seem to be requesting. Maybe its a plan to suck (I've made that argument elsewhere).

Also, X-23 is shitcanned, and Deadpool pretty much has grown into his own and, although the Daken book is okay, its still just one guy. The angsty, rebel is ALWAYS in good favor simply because it reaches so many; so many can empathize with that.

If magic and stuff like that got cool, they'd have Doc Strange on every cover not Illyana. Sidenote: recently Illyana was released from prison in order to help with the Juggernaut/Hammer wielder in Fear Itself and she was a half an inch from becoming the new Juggernaut (Collossus did in her stead) but OMFG that would have been awesome!

So, I'm still not really sure.  Marvel DOES want to sell books, and I don't think you can force-feed "cool" in comics the same way they do with other things.

[Slappy]

If he never existed, Kitty would be dead 100 times over. 
Two good reasons for him not being around.

[Navarre]

Kitty has saved the day quite a bit herself. Oh yeah... and the PLANET!! 

It may never be possible to fully define whether marketing drives characters or characters drive sale/marketing. I guess that's why they make message boards for folks like us, huh?  

recently Illyana was released from prison in order to help with the Juggernaut/Hammer wielder in Fear Itself and she was a half an inch from becoming the new Juggernaut (Collossus did in her stead) but OMFG that would have been awesome!

Though this could be seen as another sign of not quite knowing what to do with Illyana...WOW! I can't find any way to type something that conveys the uber-awesomeness of that imagery.