helpless romantics?

[@lantis]

I am not painting myself the victim in this particular scenario.  I don't feel like a victim at all.  Just unable to act in the way a romantic desires.  The best way to summarize my current situation is by watching the most recent plot line for Ted on How I Met Your Mother.  Only difference is that she is not married and we haven't gotten to the part the plot line did in the last two episodes.

The entire situation is more complicated than that, but it illustrates the point well enough.  Essentially I have to restrain myself from acting upon feelings I know we both have because I value monogamy.

Sorry, I disagree. Your emotions are not the dominant force unless you allow them to be. The way you learn to think will change your feelings accordingly.

Emotions aren't always rational, and often based on instinct.  Claiming that the rational mind can exert complete control over that is just as crazy as claiming you can't control your emotions at all.  Emotions can dominate despite your method of thinking because we don't think purely objectively ever.

[Navarre]

I didn't say emotions are rational. They are never rational because rationality comes from the thinking mind, not the emotional center.

But the rational mind can exert control over your emotions. We all experience self-dialog at every waking minute. What we say has an effect on how we feel in the same way that we could take a person, lock them up, and start brainwashing them. Essentially, we are learning to exert that same control over ourselves, but in a good way.

Outside factors affect us very much. But, ultimately, we have the ability to decide how we think about those things and, thus, how we feel in return.

[Blackthunder01]

While it's true they aren't "unstoppable" they can be the clearly dominant force in a struggle between them and your will power.

Sorry, I disagree. Your emotions are not the dominant force unless you allow them to be. The way you learn to think will change your feelings accordingly.

I have to very much disagree with you because you're implying that your mind is always incharge of your body and always the stronger force.  Turning on the news this morning is glaring evidence as to why that is so completely wrong.  Actually news out of South Philly about a boy (age 17) that took a hammer to his mothers face as she slept, stuck her head in an oven for an hour, then burried her (still alive) in a pile of trash in the back alley just because she told him to stop playing video games to be specific.  There is no way that his feelings weren't completely dominating his mind in that case.

When a loved one is in jeopardy, your emotions SHOULD/WILL/CAN over power any sense of logic you have.  You'll kill for your kids.  You'll put you're life in danger for your spouse.  You'll run into a burning building for your pets.  Why?  Because love is stronger than "I Think".

Another note is that not everyone is capable of exerting their mental strength over their emotional one.  People with Cerebral Palsy are a key example.  I'm not saying only those who suffer conditions are the only exceptions.  I'm trying to say that there are many "conditions" people have in life that weaken themselves for one reason or another and it's a lot more common than you may think.

[Blackthunder01]

I didn't say emotions are rational. They are never rational because rationality comes from the thinking mind, not the emotional center.

But the rational mind can exert control over your emotions. We all experience self-dialog at every waking minute. What we say has an effect on how we feel in the same way that we could take a person, lock them up, and start brainwashing them. Essentially, we are learning to exert that same control over ourselves, but in a good way.

Outside factors affect us very much. But, ultimately, we have the ability to decide how we think about those things and, thus, how we feel in return.

I think you're mistaking "what is" for "what should be".  I agree that what you say SHOULD BE the way it works but the truth of this world is that it. doesn't. happen.

[Navarre]

That isn't true. I make it happen all the time. So can you.

A medical condition that prevents the mind from working as I suggest is a valid exception but we aren't talking about that. The rest are excuses.

everything you mentioned about that boy was a product of his choices. He wasn't out of control. He simply didn't know how to stay in control and/or didn't choose to stay in control.

What you describe by way of those acts of violence or killiing for our children/spouse are actions. Actions are the external result of what we experience internally.

No one makes you kill or do anything else. You choose to do so. Unless you can understand that difference then you will always feel out of control, both of your emotions and of life in general.

[@lantis]

You are suggesting that every choice is rational be default.  That isn't the case.  Split second decisions are not always rational.  Your ability to think is not done in a vacuum, it involves chemical processes of the body.  Can your will affect those processes?  Yes, but to say everyone has the same capability of exerting their will over those processes is absurd since everyone's bio-chemistry is different.  It may take less for you to calm yourself to prevent the adrenaline from clouding your judgment than it does for me, just simply because my body pumps more adrenaline than yours does when it is panicked.

I agree that the mind is a powerful tool and can achieve a lot of things.  I also think that claiming anyone who can't control everything about their mind and body isn't choosing to is a little naive.

[Navarre]

You're extrapolating my statements into something far broader than what I am saying.

I am not saying every action is rational. But we are not slaves to our impulses. The entire idea of anger management has to do with the fact that someone didn't make you angry; something external happened that you were angry about and then you didn't exert control over that emotion or the impulses to act on it.

Our feelings come to us rather unbidden at all times. But we do not have to be powerless against them.

[@lantis]

We are not slaves to our impulses, but we aren't their masters either.

Anger management has questionable results at best.  Again though, I'm not saying emotions are uncontrollable, I am saying that they can exert control over the rational mind just as easily as the rational mind can exert control over them, and that fact is not the result of someone not making the right choice.

[Navarre]

I agree that the emotions can exert control over our rational thinking. And, being human, we are never going to have the balance down to perfection.

But people are very quick to make bad choices, including their general mental state, and then try to justify it with their feelings. That is a perilous and self-defeating road.

[@lantis]

Well since this topic seems to have completely derailed for the moment I will ask you this.  Do you believe in chemical impbalances in the brain?

[Navarre]

I'm not sure the topic has derailed. We are certainly talking about the "helpless" part of romanticism, aren't we? 

Yes, I definitely believe in chemical imbalances in the brain. Our ability to think, reason, and even feel is generated by our brains. This is why there are some people who can be true sociopaths from birth or may have a mental disability to develop the advanced level of cognitive control we are discussing in other threads.

If such a person has the capacity to achieve a chemical balance but has not, then that person should first address the chemical imbalance. Otherwise, any therapy or anything else will have limited effect because the brain is actively working against them.

But, by the same token, I think a lot of people are quick to claim chemical imbalance problems as a justification for not taking responsibility for their thoughts and actions. If one has a chemical imbalance then they owe it to themselves to moderate that. Once that is done, then they have the responsibility to take the next step.

[Blackthunder01]

All I'm saying in my original post is that there is just as much capacity for your emotions to over power your mind as it's possible for your mind to over power your emotions.  You have taken steps to train your mind to be stronger than your emotions so you're speaking from a very biased platform.  There are many people who have not trained their mind and have lived by their emotions and have made their emotional side stronger.  I feel this arguement has become one of "the mind is dominant so anyone who gives over to their emotions is weak" instead of the struggle between emotional and mental reactions.

People who have nervous break downs are also people who have had their emotions over power their minds.  They aren't disabled or sick either.  Is their weakness an excuss as well or were they just too weak to combat a stronger opposing force?  They go through therapy to strengthen themselves again so they can learn to be stronger.  They just weren't capable of doing it on their own when they needed to be.

[Navarre]

I feel this arguement has become one of "the mind is dominant so anyone who gives over to their emotions is weak" instead of the struggle between emotional and mental reactions.

You may feel this way but I have never stated anything to that effect. I have not called anyone "weak".

I have been discussing the capacity for each of us to moderate our feelings so they don't overwhelm us. You called it an "argument". I thought we were having a discussion?

I am also not "biased", as you claim. The fact that I have taken steps to overcome my out-of-control feelings through my cognitive resources proves to me it is possible for me. I do not assume anything about you. But I believe it likely that you are capable of the same.

As for people who have a nervous breakdown, yes they were too weak to combat the force of their own emotions at that time. It does not mean that it wasn't possible for them to do so, however.

But, at this point, we do seem to be deviating heavily from the thread because we are talking about mental health, not romanticism. I'd be glad to continue the discussion in another thread.

As for helpless romantics, I think there are all times when we feel helpless with the feelings we have for someone. I know I do. It's normal. We just have to work hard to make sure it doesn't become debilitating.

[Blackthunder01]

This post spoke volumes to me.  Here's why:

That isn't true. I make it happen all the time. So can you.

Since I've lost myself to emotional reactions before, this statement has a ring of superiority to it to me.  You don't acknowledge my struggle so I'm less than you.

A medical condition that prevents the mind from working as I suggest is a valid exception but we aren't talking about that. The rest are excuses.

Because my struggle is so easy for you, once again I'm lesser.

everything you mentioned about that boy was a product of his choices. He wasn't out of control. He simply didn't know how to stay in control and/or didn't choose to stay in control.

Isn't "not knowing how to stay in control" the definition of out of control?

What you describe by way of those acts of violence or killiing for our children/spouse are actions. Actions are the external result of what we experience internally.

Then what are reflexes?  I act in my sleep but yet my mind has no connection to the world.  Emotional responses are often describes as reflexes.  How many people say "I could see what I was doing ... I just couldn't stop."

No one makes you kill or do anything else. You choose to do so. Unless you can understand that difference then you will always feel out of control, both of your emotions and of life in general.

The American legal system doesn't agree with you.  This is specifically why some people go to jail and some people are locked up to be given therapy.  Arkham vs. Stonegate.

I'm not giving anyone a get out of jail free card for performing badly.  I'm just saying that not everyone is as strong as you are and that you need to recognize and help those that are weak.  By not recognizing that people struggle with emotional problems, you do nothing to understand them and, by extension, do nothing to help them. 

Everyone is waging this internal war.  No one will always win every battle.  And no one is ever beyond defeat.

[Navarre]

I can do little to continue this discussion here without further deviating from the thread. I will simply say that I do not consider myself superior to you, I recognize that all of us struggle with emotional issues, and that all of us can be better than we are today. On the latter part of that, it comes down to the individual to take responsibility for his own feelings, thoughts, and life.

Clearly I have offended you and been perceived in a way other than how I intended to be perceived. So I sincerely apologize for any part that is my fault.

Back on topic then, let's say that we do feel overwhelmed by our romantic feelings for someone? What can we do about that?