"Nostalgia is Masturbation"

[Gaumer]

These great words were spoken in the last MS podcast by Matthew regarding his dislikes for 2010 as far as comics go.

I found this to be very profound not just in comics but in all sorts of stuff and I thought we should discuss it a bit.

In comics, everything that was old is new again because the things that creators thought were cool back in the day they think will be cool again, and this just wasn't true.

In came up again with the talk of the movie The Expendables and how it was a throwback to the old action movies of the 80s. I hated the movie and felt like I was being force fed rehashed BS that had its day, but some Hollywood exec loved those old movies so much that he didn't see the forest for the trees. In the evolution of movies, it took us back to Cro Magnon.

Movies seem to be doing this more and more with rehashes of everything.

Yet all this stuff seems to be very popular. So what's up? Is it just a jaded few that feel this way or are people just ignoring it and blindly having "fun"?

[Navarre]

I think it has a lot to do with the overall quality of what we are given. If I picked up an issue of Captain America and saw it was in the old 4-color print style (with red pixels to create skin tone) and that the story was Cap fighting Flag Smasher or AIM in yellow trashcan helmets I'd feel as you do.

But if they can invoke the feelings I enjoyed from my old Cap comics while still giving me the better sort of writing, plot, and art I now expect from comics then I'd feel I got the best of both worlds.

[Blackthunder01]

Well, obviously, I'm going to be the polar opposite of your oppinion on The Expendables.  I really love that genre and am glad to see a possible resurrection of that type of movie.  I also really really loved Predators.  (Saw it twice.)

I don't think there's anything wrong with nostolgia so long as it doesn't take over.  Something here or there is fine.  And that's what I'm seeing.  I don't see nostolgia as being this dark blanket of deevolution that you make it out to be when we live in a world with such diversity.  I think what you're really seeing is an emerging nostolgia market that is equal in popularity as all the other genres (with the exception of romance that seems to be on the decline).  Equal; not greater.

Another reason why remakes, reboots, and nostolgia films are so popular is because ... they're so popular.  People pay to see them.  When the world grows tired of this type of movie, trust me ... Hollywood will find out (the hard/expensive way) and you will have your wish.

[Alisha Mynx]

Although stated in another topic, I figured it best to answer it here:

I think it had to do with me being so sick of nostalgia as a plot. Its masturbation, not fun.

If that isn't fun, you're doing it wrong.   

I don't think there's anything wrong with nostolgia so long as it doesn't take over.

While I don't disagree, I also think some people can take it too far without even realizing it.  Letting it "take over" means different things to different people. 

[Blackthunder01]

True, it does.  But I don't think that anyone can say that everything in movies is nostalgia at this point.  It's present but it's not crushing everything else out there.

[Larry King]

The statement "Nostalgia is Masturbation" is a perfect one. In the multimedia sphere this can be found in video games like SCOTT PILGRIM The Movie Game throwing back to the 8 bit era. Movies like Hot Tub Time Machine which is infulenced by the sex comedies of the 80's, and also comics like The Flash. In some cases it can be a good thing, and others just a poke in the eye. I am a Wally West Flash fan, not a Barry Allen fan, I could give two s**t's about the bag of wind, that was a bag of bones until a fanboy named Johns decided that Barry was the bestest Flash in the whole DCU, and all others including Jay Garrick were to bow to him. That's when the Nostalgia goes awry.

[SpiderLover]

There is nothing wrong with Nostalgia until you decide to change what others like so you can tell your favorite stores. Though we all do it, lets be honest about that. Who here watches Dr Who? Do you have your favorite doctor? I love the 10th doctor and I find myself not liking some of the 11th. So I have to remove myself and revisit it later.

Which I've done with many things. I had to stop fables but Ill pick it back up because I like the story, but they did something that made me a little angry. Nostalgia is awesome, but there comes a point when you have to move on.

[Larry King]

There is nothing wrong with Nostalgia until you decide to change what others like so you can tell your favorite stores. Though we all do it, lets be honest about that. Who here watches Dr Who? Do you have your favorite doctor? I love the 10th doctor and I find myself not liking some of the 11th. So I have to remove myself and revisit it later.

Which I've done with many things. I had to stop fables but Ill pick it back up because I like the story, but they did something that made me a little angry. Nostalgia is awesome, but there comes a point when you have to move on.

Yeah David Tennant was my Doctor, and until I came around to Matt Smith I had thought of moving on so I see where you are coming from. Like I told the guys at the LCS today, I won't say I will never read a Flash comic again, I will just say it may be a long time until I do so.

[Alisha Mynx]

Who here watches Dr Who? Do you have your favorite doctor? I love the 10th doctor and I find myself not liking some of the 11th. So I have to remove myself and revisit it later.

I've always had a "transitional period" with any Doctor (and this goes back to my childhood because I used to watch the old series too).  It isn't so much about nostalgia as it is just about adjusting to a "new" version of an old favorite for me.  And just for the record, Tennant was absolutely brilliant and is my favorite Doctor of the revived series.  Matt Smith is doing very well, but I had a slightly longer adjustment time with him, partly because he is so young compared to other actors who have played the role (THAT might be partially based on nostalgia, I admit).

[@lantis]

The nostalgia trend is just a reflection of where our society is at.  We are at a changing of the guard point in most of the media, where the guys who have been running things for a long time are finally starting to see the door and are trying to recapture some of their youth.  Simultaneously, the new guard is coming in and finally getting their chance to do those things they thought of 20 years ago when they first got into the biz, which were built off of things that were popular 20 years ago.

Once the transition is over, it will all fade until the next change over.

[Beta Ray Bill Cosby]

These great words were spoken in the last MS podcast by Matthew regarding his dislikes for 2010 as far as comics go.

Ok, first off, I don't think he said exactly "Nostalgia is Masturbation" he referred to this particular wave of it as such, but I don't think those were his exact words. The three of us actually get very frequently misquoted.

The reason why I think that's important is that he was talking specifically about some recent trends in comics using nostalgia for 'selfish' reasons. That is writers saying "I like Barry Allen, so daggum it, I'm gonna bring him back from the dead" This is probably why he said it was masturbatory, it is the people in power bringing back stuff they liked and were familiar with despite the fact that it is (arguably) problematic for the property.

The nostalgia in the Scott Pilgrim video game, I would argue, is not masturbatory since it is there for the benefit of the player, rather than the designer.

[Gaumer]

1:34:40

And you're right, it wasn't exactly that (very close tho) and I did take Matthews words out of a certain context but I tried to keep the thread as close to that context and still leave room to expand the conversation past this issue in just comics.

He was discussing this in the context of comic writers writing nostalgic stories for the mere fact that they loved it and want it rehashed, and not because that's what the readers want to read.

I in no way would intentionally misquote any of you guys in your own forum and would never do it to use those words in a negative way. With the passion so many comic book fans have, being misquoted can get way out of hand. I'm sorry to all three of you guys if it was taken that way.


Scott Pilgrim being brought up was something I was hoping for in the thread, because of the different uses of nostalgia in that movie compared to what Matthew said and the current trend of Hollywood doing the same thing, as was brought up with bringing up The Expendables.

[Larry King]

Scott Pilgrim being brought up was something I was hoping for in the thread, because of the different uses of nostalgia in that movie compared to what Matthew said and the current trend of Hollywood doing the same thing, as was brought up with bringing up The Expendables.

So I guess that means I am moving up on your list Gaumer.

With Scott Pilgirm as a comic, movie, and game, they all rely heavily on nostalgia and in my opinion, the good kind. They are creating something new, instead of the Johns digging up the past and procede to paste it over the present.

[tidge]

I'm waaaaay behind on podcasts, but I think that "Nostalgia is Masturbation" to describe Geoff Johns run on the Flash (or his influence on a few other titles) is unfair to both nostalgia and masturbation.

I see much of Geoff Johns  more recent work as a mix of bad fanfic and listening to a lunchtime conversation between two comic book fans repeating the plot of a book they both just read to each other.

I *get* that he *really likes* certain characters, but I don't think he's showing a fraction of the respect he demands be paid to those characters to characters that *other people* may actually like. He "got away" with this approach earlier (Hawkman, JSA) because he *followed* periods of disrespect to those characters...but lately he's been doing the same to characters with a more devoted following (Flash, JLI, certain GLs, LSH).

The one question I'd want to hear him answer: "How would you feel personally if in the future DC published a story in which Stargirl shot in the head by Ma Hunkel?"

[Larry King]

The one question I'd want to hear him answer: "How would you feel personally if in the future DC published a story in which Stargirl shot in the head by Ma Hunkel?"

That is a great question. I know the whole genesis of Stargirl as a character, but 10-20 years down the road some writer or editor at DC thinks, "Hey, remember Starwoman, aka Stargirl, lets have her shot in the head and bits of gray matter fly out due to a deranged Grandma Hunkle." They are not going to care that Johns created her(based her on his deceased sister), she is a piece of DC property to be used as such to sell merchandise. They are going to throw her under a bus like the creators of today have pretty much done to characters such as Ted Kord, Ronnie Raymond, and Lian Harper, to name a few.