Shadow War character development / feats / prestige classes OOC thread

[Navarre]

I would say that the monster insert also refers to the character info. But the Search mod disputes that because the character wouldn't have a +4 bonus on Search yet the insert only show a +2.

I'm hoping that's right. Because, then, I can get 3 feats of my choice.   

[sab39]

It looks to me that the minotaur starts out with 6 levels, not 2, of Monstrous Humanoid so you'd have to wait til L7 before you could start taking any monk. Or possibly those 6 plus the level adjustment meaning L8 overall.

But it does look like it's saying you can choose any 3 feats. I think the top right section is just a sample minotaur. The Search business may be because of the choice of where to put all the skill points for the 6 levels of skill points from the 6 Monstrous Humanoid levels.

[Navarre]

It says the level adjustment is +2 on the insert.

[sab39]

Yes, LA +2 but also that a minotaur character starts with 6 actual levels of monstrous humanoid. So with LA, you start out at effective level 8.

You get 3 feats because you got one at level 1, one at level 3 and one at level 6. Your skill points are 9x(2 + int mod) because that's how many skill points 6 levels of a class that gives you 2+intmod per level would give you. Etc etc.

[Navarre]

No, I think the level is 6, not 8. But, even so, that would mean I would be a 6th "level" minotaur hanging out with a 1st level party for 6 levels.

How's that fair to the other PCs? How would one even start in a 1st level party as a minotaur?

[sab39]

Not sure. Maybe you just start out without taking those levels of Monstrous Humanoid and be forced to spend your first 6 levels on that 'class'?

[Navarre]

I could understand that from my perspective. I'm wondering though about the other players.

If I was a 1st level Fighter with 10+Con hp and my fellow "1st" level player was a 6HD minotaur, I'd feel cheated.

[sab39]

I mean, start off with 1HD and one level of Monstrous Humanoid. 4x(2 + int mod) skill points, only one feat, etc.
At 2nd level, take another HD and another level of Monstrous Humanoid. Another 2+intmod skill points...
Take your second feat at level 3. Continue until you hit L6 at which point you've got 6 levels of Monstrous Humanoid and are a full-fledged minotaur.

Then take your first level of Monk at L7.

[Navarre]

Oh. You're suggesting I play "minotaur-lite".   

less filling?

[Gaumer]

The size perk to grapple is cool.

I'm not sure how one takes a monster and makes it a playable race. There's a paragraph in the MonMan about it, but it doesn't make much sense to me.

[Navarre]

I think sab may have the right of it. Otherwise, it simply makes a minotaur too unbalanced to be in a 1st level party.

Here is the edited e-mail I sent to the DM:



"Monstrous races as classes

From the research I have been doing, I do not think you are using monsters as races correctly. The +2 level adjustment does not mean that the minotaur is a 2nd level character and remains so until picking up a class at 3rd level.

The +2 level adjustment is simply the number added onto my total levels to provide Effective Character Level (ECL). So a 1st level minotaur has an ECL of 3 for where that matters but I am not a 3rd level character.

Supporting facts:

Look at this document, the one I sent yeterday... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/minotaur.htm

We have the monster insert (for a typical minotaur) on the top right and the section for the minotaur as a character at the bottom of the document. These two sections do not coincide exactly because the insert is for an NPC monster while the bottom is for the PC.

Proof (among other things): The Character section says the PC gets a +4 bonus to Search but the Insert only shows a bonus of +2.

But, far more to the point, simply read that character section. How could a party be fairly balanced if you have (for example) a 1st level human Fighter with his 1d10+Con hp in a party with a "1st level" minotaur who has 6d8+Con hp, not to mention all those racial abilities? The minotaur would overshadow the others immensely.

As much as I would love to twist rules and power game and all of that, it would be unfair then for me to play a minotaur, get the character bonuses listed on that doc, and then pick up Monk in two levels.

By my understanding, this is how it should work:

The minotaur would receive everything in the "Minotaurs as Characters" section but this is for a "Level 6" minotaur (the 6HD listed). I could progress that way if I want to but my option is to start as a "1HD minotaur" and progress up as far as the full 6HD listed -or- anywhere along the way, start picking up regular classes instead.

So, at 1st level, a minotaur would be like this (copying/editing the listed info for 1st level, in bold red font):

+8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma.

Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.

Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.

A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision out to 60 feet.

Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with one level of monstrous humanoid, which provide 1d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.

Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.

Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat at first level.

Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons.

+5 natural armor bonus.

Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).

Special Attacks (see above): Powerful charge.

Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.

Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.

Then, at 2nd level, I would have the option of picking up another level in minotaur (up to a max of 6) or I could choose another class (in this case, Monk). If I go Minotaur, I add another d8 for HD and (2+Int) skill points.

At 3rd level (no matter what race/class combo) I get a feat just like everyone else. The same is true if I go to all 6 levels on minotaur (gaining a feat at 6th level as an L6 creature, just like anyone else).

So a first level minotaur would still be mighty tough (especially since it receives the Powerful Charge ability; basically, its "cool" class feature) but is much more balanced for a 1st level party. "




Does that look correct to you guys?

[Gaumer]

Yeah, it does, and it makes sense. The races in the PHB are done up to  make the math fit. A 1st level elf/ranger, may actually have more level of elf than we actually know about because the math is done for us.

[sab39]

Your email sounds correct, with one caveat: You aren't accounting for the +2 Level Adjustment. With one level of Monstrous Humanoid, your ECL is already 3 because of LA. So technically you should also hold off on picking up even your second level of MH (or anything else) until everyone else is getting level 4.

Now, if it were me in your situation, I'd probably either conveniently forget to mention that fact, or mention it and ask the DM to consider waiving it... but I think that if you follow the rules strictly, that's what you get.

[Navarre]

Your email sounds correct, with one caveat: You aren't accounting for the +2 Level Adjustment. With one level of Monstrous Humanoid, your ECL is already 3 because of LA. So technically you should also hold off on picking up even your second level of MH (or anything else) until everyone else is getting level 4.

*LA-LA-LA!!!* I can't hear you!!   

[Navarre]

My L1 minotaur character has been rolled up, as follow:

S26/D16/C20/I11/W17/Ch12

Fort 5/Ref 5/ Will 5

13 HP

AC 17 (that's without any armor and I'm never flat-footed)

Initiative +7 (thanks to Improved Initiative, of course)

Grapple check: +13

Greataxe Attack: +7 melee, Damage: 1d12+8
Gore Attack: +7 melee, Damage: 1d8+8
Powerful Charge (1/encounter): +9 melee, Damage: 4d6+6

Pretty awesome for 1st level, imo!