Crossover Discussion

[Gaumer]

The huge crossover event has become a mainstay in comics, especially for the big two, in recent years and I wanted to discuss them.

Not just discuss the individual crossovers, although that's surely to be covered, but the idea of the crossover itself.

Blackest Night, Civil War, Crisis on <insert place here>, House of M, all of it.

Whats good? Whats bad?

[Navarre]

I think the ubiquitous nature of the crossover is the biggest problem. When a universe-shaking crisis happens every 3 months it loses its impact.

I think Civil War was an important crossover because it forced the reader as well as the characters to examine the purpose and structure of what they do. ... Most of the other crossovers (with notable exceptions) don't invoke that sort of critical examination and are instead the Armageddon of the month. 

[morpheus11]

For the most part I like crossovers.  They allow stories to be told that include different characters or even an entire universe.  Most of these stories couldn't be told without making them a crossover.  However, I don't think a crossover has to be a huge world shattering event. 

For example, Civil War was a fairly good crossover that could be considered a world shattering event.  But, then you look at the Dark Avengers/Uncanny X-men Utopia crossover and that was a very good crossover that didn't shatter the entire world, but it explained how the X-men are involved in the current status quo. 

I think those are 2 prefect example of how crossovers can be done.  I know there are a lot of people that get sick of the crossover event, but really most crossovers are small and only improtant to the titles that are involved.  It is the marketing that pushes these crossovers to be something huge and world changing and then when that crossover isn't as huge as marketed it is tagged as flop.

IMO, crossovers are important part of comics.  They bring titles together into a singular universe.  Without the Utopia crossoever no one would have told the story of how the X-men dealt with Norman and his Dark Reign. 

[Dr. Bolty]

Although I have yet to read much of either, Dark Reign and Sinestro Corps War are the only events of the past several years that have interested me. Frankly, it was the constant interruption of my favorite comics for these events that led to my rather insular reading patterns - especially the way House of M interrupted Thunderbolts by throwing a confusing deus ex machina into the middle of the plot.

[Navarre]

Are crossovers often serve as a deus ex machina? I think they often do.

Crisis on Infinite Earths and Final Crisis were designed to restore some balance to an unwieldy universe. House of M served to limit the number of mutants running around everywhere.

It is like time travel and magic. When things get too bad, just hit the Reset button. And sell a million issues while you're at it.

I'm not saying many crossovers aren't enjoyable. But they often seem to be more about selling more issues and fixing writing problems than providing a significant advancement of the universe's story line.

[Gaumer]

I'll give you that, but if there is no big happening at the end, some life changing thing happening, is the event even worth it?

Without a payoff I don't think its worth it. I read Messiah War. There was nothing different after the event that was before the event. X-Force went right back to fighting bad guys of the present, Cable took Hope back to the future and Bishop chased them. Sure Stryfe was dead but he was dead before the damned thing.

It can go either way: just put it in normal books, no crossover and it may not look like its that important. Something that decimates the mutant population SHOULD have a crossover event but there is a fine line between a crossover event and stealing my money with useless books with "the current event"'s logo tagged on it. Civil War did that a lot. I felt I was reading stuff that had no bearing on the Civil War.

I feel if what the editors want the endgame to be, if some huge event makes that happen and will bring about good stories, and is itself a good story, its ok. But in that process, if the event starts selling books, don't rape me for loving it by pushing 15 crossovers in my face, if half of those have no real bearing on anything. Its a fine line.

[Navarre]

Gaumer, your post sums up my own feelings pretty well.

Even in stories that aren't crossovers, I look for change and growth. This should apply both to the story line and the characters involved.

Conflict is at the heart of all stories. You can't have a story without it.

That conflict is a disruption in the current state of things. Any such disruption, just by virtue of its existence, will bring about change in those involved.

This should be especially true in the case of cosmic and world events. Although there are usually at least some changes, far too often I feel the end result doesn't justify the company's hype and my monetary investment.

But, like Morpheus, I really enjoy crossovers when they're good.

[morpheus11]

I will agree with Gaumer that sometimes the current event is thrown on the top of a title just so it is included into the current event but has no bearing on the event.  But, this is important for the overall universe and putting that title into the larger universe.  By putting Civil War on top of a title then the reader knew that this book was going to show how the characters in that title would deal with the event that is happening.  It doesn't mean that just b/c it has Civil War on top of it that this title is a must read to understand what is going on. 

I think this is the difference between an event and a crossover.  An event is on a larger scale and usually requires to creation of a new title for a limited time.  Some examples of this are Civil War and Blackest Night.  I don't really consider Dark Reign to be an event b/c it is more of change to the status quo.  There are new titles that are being created for it, but they just add to the story and aren't mandatory.  If you don't care about the new Avengers team put together by Osborn then you don't read Dark Avengers.  And not reading Dark Avengers isn't going to detract from the stories being told in the New Avengers title.

Now, with a crossover this is done on a smaller scale usually between 2-3 different titles.  The story that is told couldn't be told without including these different titles.  For example, Dark Avengers/Uncanny X-men: Utopia.  This story didn't affect the larger Marvel Universe, but told a story that included the Dark Avengers, the Dark X-men, and the Uncanny X-men.  IMO, this story couldn’t have been told only in the Uncanny X-men title b/c it required the presence of Norman Osborn (a key member of the Dark Avengers) and would have resulted in confusing continuity if the Dark Avengers title weren’t included.  Do they just quit printing the Dark Avengers title while the Utopia storyline going on? 

I think that most people typically have problems with the events b/c of the large number of titles that are affected and b/c it usually leads to some overly complex continuity b/c of all of the different writers that are involved.  This also leads to the titles not feeling like they are connected and I believe this frustrates people as well.  I also think that crossovers between a couple of titles are usually really good b/c they typically are opposite of a large event.  Crossovers are typically written by 1 or 2 writers that have written the entire story together and know the direction that they want it to go and how many issues it will take.  However, the crossover is used to introduce people to a title that they might not be reading or that isn’t getting purchased as much.  But, this is the nature of the marketing beast.  This is done with TV shows all of the time.  Did anyone watch Crossing Jordan or Las Vegas?  These shows had a couple of stories that crossed over and was told through both titles. 

I think this explains why I am a fan of crossovers, but not really as much of a fan of large events. 

[Navarre]

I don't mind a crossover if it occurs between titles I care about. But when something like DC's recent Deathtrap crossover occurs, it aggravates me.

The crossover was between Titans, Teen Titans, and Vigilante. At the time I was only reading Titans.

I enjoyed the Teen Titans team. So much so, in fact, that now I read it too.

I couldn't stand Vigilante and feel I wasted my money there.

So DC got to me to start another title. And I enjoy it so no complaints. After all, what I buy is my choice, not DC's.

At worst then, maybe I "wasted" money on a few issues of Vigilante but because the crossover was on a small scale and short-term it wasn't so bad.

An event, like War of Kings, may require me to not only get several titles I don't normally get but also the special title under that event's name. It requires more financial investment to get the whole story.

There I generally try to follow as much as I can. But, if I really like what I'm seeing, at least I can usually buy this as a trade paperback later on.

I don't hate crossovers or events. I just find them financially challenging.

If I could be reading every comic Marvel and DC publishes, I would.  (...well, maybe not Vigilante)   ;-)

[morpheus11]

I would agree that they events and crossovers are financially draining.  Which is why I won't be purchasing anything other than the New Mutants titles for this up coming crossover.  I probably won't even read the New Mutant titles since I won't know what is going on.  I will rely on the reviews on this website and the rumblings from others to keep the story going.  I have even thought about dropping New Mutants from my pull just b/c now I won't know what is going on.  That doesn't mean that this crossover won't be a great story.  Or that the crossover isn't necessary.

[Gaumer]

We are talking Necrosha now, the upcoming Marvel crossover.

I get X-Force and Legacy monthly. I don't get new Mutants monthly but I will get them for this crossover. It's only 3 issues anyways.

Even though I got burned on Messiah War with nothing changing at the end.

So does the event have to have the life changing thing to make it good? Utopia was a crossover, not and event IMO, but it DID have a cool life changing thing at the end, even if it was just the mutants moving again (I wonder if they use U-Haul).

I don't mind buying the extra comics if it pays off for me.

[morpheus11]

I think an order for an event to be large enough to affect all a majority of the titles in a particular universe yes it needs to be life changing.  If it isn't would it really affect everyone in a universe?  And if it doesn't affect everyone in a universe it could just take place in a single title or maybe a crossover.

Gaumer ~ If I was in your position I would pick up the 3 issues of New Mutants for this crossover.  The pay off could be really good (as far as we know) for picking up only 3 issues.  But, for me (I don't purchase X-force or Legacy) I would have to buy a lot more issues for the crossover and even more if I want to try and understand the characters in X-force and Legacy.

Generally, I wouldn't mind picking up extra comics as long as I am not having to pick up a lot of extra.  I just don't have that kind of money anymore.

[Gaumer]

I would say to anyone who buys any other X-Title (NM, Uncanny, etc.) that Legacy is a solid buy for that person. Its more like a primer for the state of affairs in X-dom. I've really enjoyed it.

X-Force, not so much. The characters are all cool, but the book has not gone anywhere. Its alleged to go places (X-23 getting chased down by some group, Rahne getting back with the Asgard wolf dude, Warpath and his brother, Angel and the Archangel deally, and Domino is there) but its gotten bogged down in crossovers so much that it hasnt done its own thing enough.

Another facet of the overall conversation. Sometimes a book can lose it own merits because of the story the crossover wants to tell.

[Navarre]

It's true that when an event or crossover is going to involve certain titles, those titles should have the event/crossover fit intelligently, even seamlessly, into the story live. Otherwise, that's when it seem to only being there to boost sales.

I didn't mind the Age of Apocalypse story line even though I had to buy several titles I didn't normally buy. The premise of the event was such that its repercussions would affect each title.

At first I was afraid it was a variation of a What If? kinda thing and that nothing from it would matter much in the end. But with characters like Dark Beast we see differently.

[Navarre]

Looking at Marvel's list for January, I see Steve Rogers is back in uniform and back with the Avengers. That is terrific news.

I also see that all of that is heavily involved in the Siege event that is starting. That is not terrific news.

The event itself looks to be very interesting. But I'd have to have 3 jobs and a loan to buy all the titles they want me to buy.

It just isn't right. I know publishers need to make money but I feel like I an being extorted through my love of comics.

When it becomes impossible to even follow the stories because I can't afford it it becomes difficult to maintain interest only because I know I will be left out. Where does that help anyone?