Ethnicity and Homosexuality in Comics

[Navarre]

This thread is prompted by a recent post on the main site where Wendell Vaughn has once again assumed the mantle of Quasar, Protector of the Universe. The former Quasar was Phyla-Vell, a lesbian female.

This event has invoked some dissatisfaction. The way that gay and ethnically diverse characters are portrayed is worthy of discussion. However, I thought the forum here gave more latitude for an in-depth, ongoing discussion that the comments section of the main site.

So I am opening up this topic. First, the comments from the main site as of the time of this posting:

Rollenspiel said:

*sigh* another male saviour for the universe. Because we don’t have enough of those already.

I’d rather have seen a strong female character again. But I agree. It makes sense.

To which I replied:

      Navarre:
     
      I preferred Phyla-Vell myself. But I don’t think the choice was gender motivated.

      I think Phylla was already tied up with the Guardians and it left Wendell free for a more spotlit role.

      I too would like to see some stronger and more prominent female characters in lead roles.

      Some would claim that making Phyla a lesbian also worked against her, using her preference to indicate strength and to provide titillation instead of simply having her be a capable heterosexual character. Personally, I don’t think it was planned that way.
     
Brent's reply to me:

            Brent:
         

            “But I don’t think the choice was gender motivated.”

            and

            “Some would claim that making Phyla a lesbian also worked against her, using her preference to indicate strength and to provide titillation instead of simply having her be a capable heterosexual character. Personally, I don’t think it was planned that way.”

            I get that you, Navarre, are not personally an advocate of the mindset Rollenspiel pointed out. But, as with real life, there is no sitting on the fence, we are all part of the problem or part of the solution, even when we try our hardest to do (or see) nothing.

            Your comments remind me how hard we all work to justify “the way things have always been” (in comics and in real life). It’s not like any one person is to blame for entertainment mediums reverting to the same old, narrow archetypes. But isn’t the pattern evident? You honestly think it is a coincidence that once again, a capable female character is a (lipstick) lesbian (because Heaven forbid any other kind of lesbian be shown in a heroic light)? You don’t wonder when the got rid of her so the Saviour of the Universe is again an Earthling…of European descent and male gender, to be exact? (Kudos to the GL Corps for addressing such a preposterous premise).

            I’m not jumping on Navarre personally, I promise. But I truly believe most of what’s wrong with society (and entertainment) in this regard is not the purposeful machinations of “evil doers”. The problem,to paraphraase Edmund Burke, is that “good men do nothing”. Refusing to see or acknowledge that something is amiss is not the same as “nothing is amiss”.

            I’m off my now soapbox, prepared for flames.

            Oh yeah, the new costume rocks, especially if tied to the Nova Corp mythos.
           
And, finally, my rebuttal:

                  Navarre:
                 
                  Well, yes, I honestly think it’s a coincidence. Most characters in comics are Caucasian males so there is a greater chance for any new Quasar to fit that mold.

                  I have many times made comments that there isn’t enough diversity in characters. This would include gender, ethnicity, and sexual orientation.

                  There are gay and lesbians in the universe so it stands to reason that some of the heroes would be as well. Phyla just happened to be one of them.

                  But I didn’t take it that she was chosen to be “the capable one” because of it. That doesn’t apply to Jean Grey or Sue Storm or Ororo or Carole Danvers or any others from a long list of capable female heroes.

                  Some characters are gay, some are not. I don’t believe it has anything to do with whether they are capable.

                  I have several times made comments about the problem of female characters being dressed like hookers. I don’t think it represents women for the way they would be as heroes and only panders to the male’s desire to see illustrations of large-breasted, scantily-clad women.

                  I completely support gay rights.

                  But, no, I just don’t see that Phyla being gay had any effect on her being the former Quasar.

What are your thoughts on the way gay and ethnically diverse character are, or are not, portrayed in comics (or at least in this example)?

[Gibralter]

Rather than go off on a tangent,(mainly because I can't type very well) I'm going to break down a say that I don't care about ethnicity and sexual orientation in my comic characters. If its a strong character it shouldn't really be brought up and have no baring on that person being a hero/villain/antihero/dues ex machina/poorly draw purple line.

[Gaumer]

Good topic.

Let me start with the gay and lesbian characters in comics. My mom got divorced when I was 10 and shortly thereafter moved in with my "aunt" who she stayed with until her death over two years ago. Most 'traditional' partnerships do not last 10 years. This lesbian partnership lasted 20 years.

I was raised around 'aunts' and 'uncles' from a young age, and seeing men in relationships together or women in relationships together was really no big deal to me.

I remember I stayed a summer at my uncle Jean-Paul and aunt Parker's :-) house in the boonies. They had a pond and everything. It was one of the best times I had ever had. One day we went to the mall and they were holding hands and some people yelled at them for it. They were punk kids maybe a few years older than me, I was maybe 12. I had no idea why they were being yelled at. They had to explain to me that they were different and some people didn't like that.

This is a societal problem. People who are gay are just like everyone else. A lot of people do not understand that and they have this stereotype of the flamboyant queen or the lipstick lesbian. It's what they understand. It's like seeing the youth of America as a bunch of emo kids standing on a corner. No one does that because America knows better.

A gay or lesbian character should be no more or no less intriguing BECAUSE they are gay.

Is there a place for the flamboyant queen and the lipstick lesbian in comics or entertainment in general? Sure. If that medium wants to continue to push a stereotype, like the black street thug (which has moved to the Latino street thug now), but the stereotype IS used because being gay just isn't that exciting.


As far as racial minorities not being used in comics as lead characters, I just don't know. Black Panther sells in the top 100...I don't know of any other main character who is a minority.

But that too is lost on me to a point. Whenever I see Falcon or Bishop in a book I don't think about race. I'm like "Hell yeah, there's the Falcon to save Bucky Cap's ass" or "Damn, it's Bishop, don't hurt Hope she is going to be cool someday...maybe. My point is the story isn;t made better or worse because of their race, it's because of their character.

I have no idea why there aren't more minorities being taken more seriously or in lead roles, but it has to come down the the writers thinking the way I have laid out. Not making it a big deal, and understanding the characters that they are writing.

Peter David did it right. No pressure, no forcing, no nonsense, no fear. Just the obvious reactions of these two characters seeing each other after a time apart.


http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2009/07/01/X-Factor_Comic_Gets_First_Gay_Kiss/

That happened in X-Factor recently. I honest to God didn't think anything of it until after I saw an article for it. When everyone else gets to that point, these discussions won't have to happen.

Another perfect example is Wiccan and Hulkling in the Young Avengers. They are gay and the drama is there from them dealing with how society copes with them, but they are nowhere near the stereotypes I listed.

[The_Julian]

I'm actually going to go all the way back to when the character Franklin was added into the Peanuts comics. When the fans of the strip attempted to find some political message behind the inclusion of an African American character to the cast, Charles Shultz responded that he meant nothing of the sort; he just introduced him as a regular character.

And I think that's beautiful. If we can get to a point where introducing ethnically diverse and homosexual characters without any message or specific reason, but instead as characters that just happen to be whatever they are, then I think that can be considered true character equality.

[Navarre]

I agree with everything that has been said so far. The goal, for everyone, should be to live in a world where none of us notice or care about race or gender preference.

But maybe that is easier for me to say because of my own experiences. I am a middle-class, Caucasian male. I am 6' 2" tall, just like my hero, Captain America. And, although he outweighs me by 50 pounds of solid muscle, I am lean and fit and we both have blond hair and blue eyes.

Like all people, I have experienced my share of labeling and bias. It is inevitable.

But I would be naive to say that I have experienced it to the same degree as a black man or a morbidly obese woman or an obviously gay person. I can't imagine what it would be like to know that you aren't welcome in a diner just because you're black and common sense tells you to move on, no matter what your legal rights say. That kind of prejudice still exists in plenty of places, although I'd like to think it's a little less all the time.

I would suppose after you are labeled and judged by one characteristic long enough, you might start to embrace it as a defining factor of your identity. After all, you observe each day how that factor influences the way you are perceived.

So, if you internalize something like your skin color to define you partly as a person, it would be reasonable to assume you would look for others like yourself for social solidarity. This is seen all of the time in certain neighborhoods.

This might also be reflected when you search for heroes to emulate. It might be difficult for a young black child to feel Captain America represents them, even though he certainly does.

Perhaps Luke Cage or the Falcon seems a more relevant character. ... which, as an aside, one might notice are both convicted criminals with frequent anger issues. Stereotype much?

From this line of reasoning, I can see why someone who is not Caucasian or heterosexual or, heck, even male might gravitate toward heroes with whom they identify. So it is dismaying when we see a lot of angry black men, oversexed barely-dressed women with impossible breast sizes, and homosexual characters that are for generating controversy instead of advancing the story.

It becomes a delicate balance. I completely agree that none of these factors should have anything to do with writing a good character. ... and yet they do.

Comics reflect the world in which we live so to write a comic where none of these things matter is unrealistic. Yet to write a comic where these things are made to matter for their own sake is exploitation.

And I guess this is where some of the debate starts to come in. Once a character of a different race was the cause for this same debate (eg, Franklin in Peanuts) but now not so much. Once having a strong female character in comics was even controversial.

Now it seems to be the homosexual character. But I'd like to think that society grows up just a little with every generation.

So maybe someday Phyla-Vell can be Quasar just because she was picked to be and no one will really care too much if she's gay or not. In the meantime, these sorts of controversies and subsequent debates unfortunately continue.

[JoeMcAwesome]

http://io9.com/5349421/are-american-comics-institutionally-racist

The article calls something into question, maybe comic characters that aren't white males just don't sell well, thus leading to fewer characters that don't meet that criteria.  Is that true?  I have no idea, but I don't think that's an excuse for writers to not try and write well developed characters that are of any ethnicity, gender or sexual preference.

And along the lines of what other people said, the best way to "empower" a character that happens to be something other than a white heterosexual male is just to flesh them out just like any other character.

[The_Julian]

Oh, and there's another character that was no more or less interesting when it was revealed he was homosexual: Tom Friendly from Lost. In fact, you didn't know the guy was gay until after he died. Just to point it out.

[Gaumer]

"I would suppose after you are labeled and judged by one characteristic long enough, you might start to embrace it as a defining factor of your identity. After all, you observe each day how that factor influences the way you are perceived."

Excellent point, Nav, adn I don't think there are any minority characters that have their race or sexual orientation as their defining aspect. We DO see that in real life but in comics if someone is identified by their race its usually an extreme case like the Red Skull. It's not done in a tasteful, powerful way to make the reader feel their cause as their own.

This may be because super heroes in general are a minority of their own and being that hero IS their defining attribute.

Young Avengers again, Patriot has no powers and he feels left out because of it.

Is that the problem? Are we not seeing the forest in spite of the trees?

[Navarre]

It may be part of the issue, yes. Also, because writers may be careful to avoid claims of prejudice they might be hesitant to openly address the prejudice a minority character probably encounters on a daily basis.

Look at movies. If you go to IMDB, you can't read a forum about any movie without someone claiming it presents racial prejudice.

I have seen many claims about how Hancock was a terrible movie because the black character was an alcoholic, jobless, malcontent. One one hand, yes, that is a stereotype. But there were reasons for it that had absolutely nothing to do with race. It was just in his character history.

But if the writers had written in any degree of racial awareness toward the character, the hostile feedback would have been even worse. It was like the writers couldn't win. And that's a shame because I thought Hancock gave us an interesting character with a lot of room for growth and an exploration of his history, which was unknown even to comic book readers.

It wouldn't be any different with the Falcon or Luke Cage. On one hand you have the angry, street-talking ex-con. On the other you have this hero.

Personally, I think it all goes together to create those specific characters. But if more attention was brought to their race, it would likely only exacerbate the claims of racial prejudice.

It is interesting though that so much controversy has been made on the other side of the fence when a black character is too far from the stereotype. Look at the Huxtables on the Cosby Show.

I remember people complaining that it wasn't typical to see a black doctor and a black lawyer and that the show wasn't respectful or representative of most black families. It seems you can't win.

The only way such controversies would go away would be if people stopped caring about race or homosexuality or other minority-specifics. If we could achieve that culture for ourselves we would finally move past all of this.

I see slight improvements over time. But I think we're a long way from being there.

Because I put so much faith in comics, especially their power to impact youth, I would like to see comics advance this cultural goal. But unfortunately it seems to be avoided.

When Phyla can't be the "Protector of the Universe" without uprisings about her sexual preference, it only shows me how pervasive the problem remains.

[The Mighty King Cobra]

There's a simpler issue at work here.

People wanted Wendell back as Quasar because Wendell USED to be Quasar, and change is inherently bad.  Phyla actually has a meatier storyline for her as the Martyr than anything she might have done as Quasar, which should at least be some sort of tradeoff...

People wanted Barbara Gordon, who is paraplegic and much more interesting as Oracle, to be Batgirl again, too. 

[Navarre]

I agree that the story line some characters follow isn't necessarily related in any way to their gender, ethnicity, or sexual preference. In fact, that was part of my original point.

Phyla could have been chosen as Quasar just because it worked for the story, not because she is a lesbian. Phyla no longer being Quasar could also be because it works for the story.

I don't really like Phyla as Martyr because I don't like her new attitude. But I agree that it leaves open at least as many story opportunities.

It does two things. It gives Phyla a cosmic place with the Guardians title without her running off to "protect the universe" all the time. It also opens up story opportunities for the new Quasar, who is free to be present in multiple titles without continuity problems.

I think issues of gender, ethnicity, and sexual preference are issues that need to be consciously addressed in a way that advances the presence and acceptance of such things. But I also think sometimes a stone is just a stone, no matter how you paint it.

[svzurich]

In Dynamo 5, Myriad (Spencer Bridges) is the half-alien shapeshifter of the bunch.  He's introduced as a womanizing black man long before we see that his body is actually alien.  During one arc, this unknown agile superheroine Vigil is active, and we eventually learn she is actually Myriad.  When his half-brother questions Spencer regarding his time as a woman, Spencer admits he isn't actually bound to any race or gender, and is curious.

Kudos to Jay Faerber for making a character who is willing to explore such issues.

[Navarre]

Chameleon of the Legion was also gender-neutral.

Tyroc, a black character, was featured back long, long ago. And though his afro seemed indicitive of the publishing year not the character year, he worked. (We won't talk about his costume though.)

I believe Element Lad is gay. Is that right?

Shrinking Violet (my favorite Legionaire, btw) has had relationships on both sides of the Y-Chromosome.

It is part of why I always enjoyed the Legion. They were progressive in their +1000 year time line often before the reading world was.

[svzurich]

The Element Lad just before Zero Hour was gay.  He really doug Shvaughn Erin as both sexes.  I was so glad to see that version of the universe rebooted away.  It was far too grim.  Who knew I could find something to like about Zero Hour?

[Navarre]

I wish the Legion hadn't had to go through so many reboots. They are victims of having to follow the present time line progression.

I'd almost rather it just be an alternate universe, which realistically it should be anyway as I don't accept there is only one line into the future.

But, either way, the Legion has alays impressed me with how progressive it is. That and the X-Men have always been favorites because of that.

... The X-Men just got more of the spotlight. ... Maybe if Timberwolf had longer claws and was a bit more surly...